I don't know how much press this has been getting in the States, but London is absolutely in flames right now and the division appears to be along class lines. It started last Thursday when a small-time hood was shot to death by London cops (to be fair, it appears he was shooting back, and one cop was shot too). (EDIT: Thanks to samoanboy and dmackorth for pointing out that Duggan did not fire the loaded weapon he had in his possession at the time of his death. Apparently the police shooting was friendly fire.) The 10,000 extra cops deployed in London last night seemed to gain the upper hand a bit, even as riots flared up in Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool.
So who is doing all the rioting? Early on it seemed to be the black community, but the riots have taken on a life of their own and now it's more of a poor vs. rich situation. Businesses are being burned and looted, and when two young female rioters were interviewed they admitted they'd been drinking looted alcohol the whole time, that they hoped the riots continued, and that they were "showing the police and rich people we do what we want."
Sales of baseball bats in London have risen 6,500% on Amazon since the riots started. Whether that's rioters buying them to inflict more damage or business owners buying them to protect what's theirs is anyone's guess.
This is really bad, guys. London is a powder keg and has been for some time. As it stands right now, the City of London is safe and the banks are mostly out of the rioters' reach. But I have friends who live on the outskirts of London and they're telling me that things are completely out of control right now.
Try to imagine the five boroughs descending into flaming riots and you can get a mental picture of what the equivalent would be in New York. Scary stuff.
On one hand I don't like the creeping encroachment of the police state mentality in all Western countries. For instance: do we really need small town police departments with SWAT teams packing more firepower than the Navy SEALs? Do we need fucking cameras everywhere? It's bad in London and it's getting to be that way in DC as well. And don't even get me started on cops tasering grandmas and power tripping TSA assholes right here in the USA.
On the other hand this Mark Duggan seemed to me to be a total shit whose short, attempted career at cop killing orphaned his kids. Having lived through the LA riots I don't buy the notion that looting electronics stores or torching strangers' cars rectifies any kind of social injustice. This is just stupid simian rage.
Eddy there is so much misinformation in your post.
Number one London is not 'in flames' there was zero rioting / looting last night and the police have the situation completely under control (admitedly there was a lot of activity in Manchester and Birmingham last night).
The 'small time hood' was not shooting back, he did not fire his weapon (a converted BB gun) and the police have a terrible record in Tottenham, Hackney etc of mistreating younger members of the community with repeated unprovoked stop-and-searches (I have lived in Hackney for years and have never once been stopped by the police, my next door neighnbour (an accoutant at Deloitte) has been stopped three times in the last year - guess what colour I am and then guess what colour he is? - for the record the last few days have not been politically motivated
The rioting is not poor vs rich. It is teenagers on school holiday and other small time criminals who would otherwise have spent their time breaking into people's houses/cars/handbags who have now seen this as an opportunity to very quickly steal some tvs and throw some bricks at the police in the meantime - there is zero political motivation behind their actions and any attempts by drunken school girls to create motive for recent actions is incredibly transparent
As someone who lives right in the middle of the action (burnt out cars on my road yesterday) i can assure everyone that the situation is not a powder keg about to explode but instead an embarrassing demonstration of idiotic teenagers using a tragic death (probably of a criminal) to steal some tvs and have some fun in the process. This is not the LA riots!!!!
Eddie, I appreciate your post but thier are somerros as samoanboy says- msotly that it was released yesterday that Mark Duggan never fired his weapon.
As far as Samoan boy- I would actually agree that there is some element of rish versus poor going on here.
I live in Tottenham, center of the action- even last night they blew up 3 recycling trucks not far from where I live) and it is scary here.
on the whole though, the police had London locked down tight last night.
We will see how this thing progresses.
Btw interesting point- my bank mandated that everyone has to 'dress down' today and no one is allwed to wear a suit.
we will see what happens tonight as the police presence is supposed to decrease tonight.
@samoanboy Thanks for the street-level view of the situation. I wasn't trying to post misinformation, I thought I made it clear that London had calmed down last night but that other areas were flaming up. This is clearly the worst rioting in the UK in the last 30 years, regardless of motivation.
Reminds me of the riots in france back in 2005; quite similar story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France
[quote=16rl]Reminds me of the riots in france back in 2005; quite similar story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France[/quote]
Very much so. I think the root causes are similar as in high youth unemployment and the perceived isolation of "lower classes." While the rioters probably don't have much of a political agenda, the whole situation seems symptomatic of a place where some have very little prospects of getting a solid job. It's a wonder stuff like this hasn't happened in Spain.
Just a few of bitter Gooners expressing their distaste with Arsene's transfer tactics.
Haha!! Hilarious... Gotta love Midas.
Hahaha, or lack thereof. Every year they offload their best and don't replace them
The guy was a known drug dealer with an illegal I think I will side with the armed police until evidence suggests otherwise. Also London seems to be calmer but than again with so many police it would be a surprise if it wasn't, definitely don't agree that its the rich vs poor, although there will probably be some of that think its mostly just opportunistic crime.
I live about 40 minutes from London and they shut most of the shops and restaurants in my area last night. Really scary stuff.
I have a friend who's moving to London in a couple of weeks; needless to say she's now terrified. Hopefully things settle down soon. I wonder how Tony Blair would handle this...
Whatever the riots are for, it is pushing back the economy, effecting businesses, may cause a negative impact on immigration, causing bad press for London etc.
All of these things are unwarranted for. There are other ways to protest or fight injustice (if that is the case, I highly doubt it).
This is brutal. 150-year old family business passed down through 5 generations burned to the ground in an hour after surviving 2 world wars:
That is very sad.
I'm putting this in the same camp of wanton destruction as the Taliban blowing up ancient Buddhist monuments: they destroyed a piece of history and there's no excuse for it. I don't CARE what social/racial/criminal issues are driving it. I'm thinking relaxed gun laws for productive citizens would allow them to use the fear of getting blown away to keep the degenerates in check?
So the sales of baseball bats in London have gone up 6500%? Let me buy a few cricket bats, and I think the sales would go up 500% in New York.
Last time I checked, nobody plays baseball in London. I doubt that number is as significant as the article makes it to be.
It hasen't happend in Spain because, when the going gets tought they go to the beach... manjana....
I live in East London (Stepney Green) and the riots didnt affect me until yesterday when basically all of the stores in a mile radius of me were closed (even the curries- a big electronic store- had like 20 police surrounding the entrance.
I personally think the London riots are over now though... 16k police patrolling last night vs 6k the night before
This is nothing compared to 1968 in the US and Europe. France nearly suffered a revolution and DeGaulle had to flee to France as protesters literally took over the streets. Right around the time, Mick Jagger wrote "Gimme Shelter" as he watched race riots in Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and finally as the Democratic Party self-destructed with its own riot at the Chicago Democratic Convention. The Weathermen were running around planting bombs and angry rioters were shouting "BRING THE WAR HOME".
To an intelligent conservative, it must have looked a lot scarier 40 years ago than it does today.
This is nothing unprecedented or unexpected. Don't believe me? Ask your parents- they probably participated in the riots the last go-round.
^ Disagree.
The fear of dying as an immediate repercussion of one's actions is much more of a deterrent than a down the road potential sentence that may or may not include the occasional game of ass play.
I agree, let the shop owners have a gun in their place of business. Lets see these stupid thugs try to do this shit in Pennsylvania. They wouldn't because they know their asses will get blown away.
You are an absolute idiot. I am sure that the riots have been far better than if guns were allowed in the uk, take into consideration that, as far as I know, only one person has died during the past events, and its going to be 5 days. In LA riots 53 people died. Shop owners that defend their business do it knowing that the chance the rioters have guns is low, allowing for example the turks in the east to defend with just bats. Guns just gave more power to the outlaws, a guy with a bat can certainly take far less people than one with a handgun, where the law abiding people are a majority guns only give an advantage to the thugs.
As someone who went to school in Philadelphia, I can assure that the criminals in Pennsylvania operate with no fear of getting their asses blown anywhere.
I wonder if the military will be deployed any time soon? If the police can't find a way to get things under control by tonight what choice would they have. Maybe even curfews ect. You gotta wonder if this thing is going to dissipate or if it'll start turning into some sort of national security threat. I'd like to see some posts from people in london, are things calming down or heating up? Is the situation better or worse than what is being shown on the media?
Ruhroh, if they deploy the military, that means clubs and tasers! However, it will end the $20 fines for theft.
They had to go all the way up to the PM to authorize the use of water cannons.
It's getting pretty wild out there:
Too funny. +1
SB to you, sir. That is fucking hilarious.
^^haha
In France they burn cars not shops...
Is it just me or the Riots in France have been MORE covered than this one in the UK?
To the OP I can't imagine a riot in NYC... Would be SICK... Especially with all the illegal guns around...
very interesting video:
can any one confirm those stats
very interesting video:
can any one confirm those stats
I live in one of the worst affected areas of London (because the rent is too damn high) and I have to say I think you're blowing this out of proportion. Yes Monday was pretty bad, but Tuesday and tonight have been no different to usual, save for the greatly increased police presence. The strangest thing is that there are Welsh Heddlu (police) vans parked round the corner. And even on Monday: the commentator who described the scenes as "reminiscent of the Blitz" has obviously been inhaling too many fumes from a burning glue factory...
This is opportunistic crime at its most extreme. There is no political motivation. Most riots will eventually involve looting - but the sole purpose of these riots has been the looting itself, with the fires serving mostly to distract the emergency services. These are the Consumer Society Riots.
What these riots are is a symptom of a deeper problem in British society. There is a growing underclass in this country who seem to be very deeply aware of their rights, but seem to have no idea of their responsibilities and who don't have to live with the consequences of their actions. They go through school being disruptive terrors because they know that when they leave without qualifications they won't need to work and can spend their days scamming the benefits system - just like their role models (parents or older relatives) do. Of course, they will disrupt their piers as well and stop them from making more of themselves but you can't kick them out because that would affect their "right to an education." Even when they physically assault teachers, they can be back in (the same) school within a week. They even have the right to stay living in fashionable (and expensive) areas of London because they have "the right to live in their local community." The new block of buildings by where I live will be given 10% to social housing for free. Rents in that building start at £1,400pm - so to JUST pay that rent you would need to earn £22,000 a year (pre-tax) which is nearly the national average salary. In these riots, the police have been largely held back from stopping a lot of the looting, for fear of recriminations if they come across as too heavy handed (see G20). So it's acceptable that the police have to tolerate being hit with missiles and petrol bombs, but to use CS gas or water-cannon on looters is "violating their rights." Also, with overflowing prisons forcing a catch and release policy, many convicted offenders will quickly be back on the streets with nothing more than a fine (probably covered by their stolen goods).
This, people, is the biggest thread to urban society in this country. With an ever ageing population, we cannot afford to have so many people of working age as such as drain on society.
@British Great insights, sorry it's happening in your neighborhood.
Years of liberal dogma have spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent, brutalised youngsters
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal…
Londonistan? Seriously?
I'm somewhat saddened that no one has called out the - let's just be blunt about it - racism in the topic's title. I'm not sure if it was intentional, subconscious, or an attempt to be cheeky, but it sure strikes me as odd.
The use of the term "Londonistan" implies that Muslims, or "Pakis" as the British like to call them, are doing the rioting. Whatever you think of the term "Londonistan" in general, its use in the current context is so misleading that it would be like blaming the riots on the IRA. Only "race-blind" Stephen Colbert would be unable to see from the pictures of the riots - including the one used in the original post - as well as the news reports, that most of the rioters are white.
I have nothing but respect for you Edmundo Braverman, and you deserve a ton of of credit for the time that you have selflessly spent sharing your experience on this site, but the ball's in your court on this one.
Yeah, let's not wrongly accuse the muslims here. The pakistani shopkeeper is the kind of prototypical victim in this savagery. The overwhelming majority of the rioters were black non-muslims -- with a couple of asians and white chavs thrown in there.
Not what I meant at all. Merely used it as an allusion to Afghanistan, as in, a war zone.
http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/
jman1234, shame on you for even making that connection. People back in France in 05 talked about things being like Baghdad (District B13 made the line popular) and it had nothing do with race, just general lawlessness.
@EdmundoBraverman - thank you for clarifying your intent, and I appreciate your not getting bent out of shape like some people on this thread.
As @FinancialNoviceII points out, "Londonistan" as most commonly used is a negative term referring to the rising number of Islamic immigrants to England, with the implication that the result is Islamic fundamentalist terrorism right under the West's nose. I'll include references this time so no one thinks I'm making this up: Urban Dictionary, Dictionary.com, and Wikipedia
@GoodBread/@UFOinsider - I couldn't care less if you want to make a comparison b/w London & Afghanistan / Paris & Baghdad / NYC potholes & Kosovo bomb crates - as a veteran I would disagree, but wouldn't care enough to post - but that's not what the title means by any common usage of the term. I accept EdmundoBraverman's explanation but it is lacking in the original post so I don't feel bad about having called it out and gotten the explanation.
^ Seriously, 1234's got some sand in his vagina?
It's the same as driving down NYC roads full of potholes and saying, "this is like driving in downtown Kosovo." It's because there are bomb craters everywhere.
The term 'Londonistan' usually has negative connotations here in London so I dont blame him for making the connection he did but I clearly understood what Edmundo was doing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/13/david-starkey-claims-whites-bl…
Sure that's going to liven the debate.
He's right and it's happened in the US too, with the wiggers, hip hop and thug culture should banned in my opinion.
Britain needs martial law and needs to stop being so liberal. Send the army and gun down people from the poor neighborhoods and ethnics.
Anyone familiar with so called 'supercop'?
Further alienates an already angry Met Police.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/13/bill-bratton-advice-uk-police
British rap's response:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/aug/12/rap-riots-professor-green-l…
The embodiment of the riots:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/uk-riots-gangster-chic-brands
^^^^^This calls to mind that awesomely offensive bumper sticker I used to see:
"Stupid People Shouldn't Breed"
Drive carefully. 70% of the people in this world are accidents.
We had a Representative in New Orleans propose something similar a couple years ago, but he wasn't quite as generous as IP:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=271010
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